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Speaker 3: Hey, everyone. Jeff Risen here with your daily DLP. We're coming at you, and we are you know what? We got a guest. I don't wanna keep him waiting because he's he's been great very gracious with his time. I will bring him in. My old friend, dear friend, Ben Solak, mister Solak from ESPN among other places, but now, now we see you. You're always on with me in the times. You're having fun. Ben, thanks for joining us, buddy.

Speaker 1: I like the intro music. You told me it was it was gonna be uproarious. I thought it was a good got my my blood pumped, and I was ready to go.

Speaker 3: See, that's the point for it. You know, there's a lot of people that complain about it, but it it lets you know it lets you know where you're at.

Speaker 1: Exactly. It's provocative. It gets people going.

Speaker 3: So, Ben, before we get into the line stuff, Aaron Rodgers is back in Pittsburgh and I wanna just get this off the bat because you're Steelers fans aren't super happy with your takes on it and I just wanna let you talk about Aaron Rodgers rejoining the Pittsburgh Steelers. You know, we know him from Detroit from being a nemesis for a long time.

Speaker 1: Yeah,

Speaker 3: I I thought he was coming back. I don't think this is necessarily a huge surprise, but your take on on on A Rod, that A Rod going to Pittsburgh.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I always thought that Brady being as good as he was after 40 was going to lead to this, which is a quarterback is continuing to start, you know, at 39, at 40, at 41, at 42. And fan base is not calibrating to that the way they should. It's like, oh, it's possible to still be really good. Brady was out there, you know, pushing the ball downfield at 44 years old for the Buccaneers. And it's like, alright. Brady is a, the exception improves the rule. B, like, I, like, you know, still to this day, like, do not understand everything that Brady did reported and unreported to take care of his body to be able to play like that. Rodgers was 41 last season and just could not play. He can't move. Right? It was his lowest season by next gen stats starting in terms of, you know, miles per hour per drop back, you know, total yardage move per drop back. Like, he just has never relocated less. He attempted fewer throws on the move than he has in any season over the last ten years. He had the lowest depth of target of any quarterback last year. He threw the ball behind line of scrimmage more than any quarterback last year. He had an historic season for yards after the catch. 64% of his yards came after the catch. He is playing the sort of offense right now that you and I would play if we were quarterbacks, which is this guy can't take a hit, and he can't run away from anybody, and he can't throw the ball down the field. So we just have to, right now, get the ball out of his hands, get it to Kenneth Egan. We'll get it to Darnell Washington. Get it to anybody who can run after the catch and see if we can make a passing game that way. So the offense last year was untenable. Now you can argue me into with Mike McCarthy. He'll have a better understanding of how to weaponize Rogers intelligence because they did that for so long together in Green Bay. And then if Rogers is willing to do a little more under center and let there be some pre snap motion, then they can be like a, you know, Jimmy Garoppolo style offense where Jimmy was also, like, never moving for the the forty niners. And he was just kind of working, you know, eight to 15 yards down the field. But they just hit so many quick windows with so many quick breaking routes, and then they had Deebo, and they they guys weren't after the catch that that, like, the passing game can look better. You can get me there for sure. But this is not gonna be a elite passing game. There's the Rodgers lacks the physical toolkit to make that happen. So the Steelers passed on the entire quarterback for Asian market, which is never that great, but, like, Kyler Murray, like, would have been super cheap. Malik Willis is like, okay. Maybe he can be a starter for you. They pass on all that to give the guy 22 and a half million dollars to be destined to have, at best, the thirteenth best passing game in football. To me, that's not good business. That's

Speaker 3: that's why you're on ESPN, my friend. That's the

Speaker 1: long and short of it, baby.

Speaker 3: I love it. I love it. So one thing you you touched on, like, the the yards after the catch being an integral part of their passing offense. Detroit also does that, but Goff can throw the balls down the field more. He can't move either. But, I so

Speaker 1: So if you look at a lot of the numbers, like, you know, Rogers, like, on on throws downfield, Rogers got the ball out faster than any quarterback in the league. Second was Jared Goff. Right? You know, plays under pressure, you know, inaccurate throws. Like, Rogers led the league. Goff is, like, third. Right? There's a lot of, like, similarities. But what Goff does is Goff's willing to get under center and turn us back to the defense, and they use a lot of preset motion. So golf lets the coordinator do the window dressing necessary to make that sort of a play style work. Rogers refuses to get under center and does not like preset motion. So he's not allowing his office coordinator to access the tools that can make a limited quarterback effective in 2026. And so shout out to Jared for knowing where his bread is buttered relative to Rogers who kind of is not yet admitting what sort of quarterback he has to be at this stage in his career.

Speaker 3: Amen to that. So so long and short of it, Aaron Rodgers, not as good as Jared Goff. That's that that's the sound bite that that AI will rip from this.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And and and I truly, actually, earnestly believe that, which is, you know, like, it's a crazy sentence, but it is a true sentence. Alright.

Speaker 3: One of Jared Goff weapons is, Jamir Gibbs.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: And we have been looking for a long time that there's gonna be a contract extension sooner than later with Jamir Gibbs. And this week, Devon Etienne, I hope I said that right, in Miami, got an got a deal that sort of bumps things up a little bit and gives you a little bit more clarity on where a Jameer Gibbs extension might be. HN got four years of 64,000,000. It can go up to 68,000,000 with 50% guaranteed.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: Is that is that even close to the floor for whichever Gibbs is gonna get in Detroit?

Speaker 1: No. I mean, I think Gibbs will clear Barkley. Right? Gives is gonna clear, you know.

Speaker 3: So so Saquon's at what? 20.6 a year. Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah. And it was the thing where, like, the Eagles initially gave him a $14,000,000 deal, and then he played one season, and then they bumped it up because they won the Super Bowl on the back of having just, like, a dominant rushing attack. It was the most, like, okay. We're just gonna pay the running back because, like, if we're not gonna pay this running back, who's ever gonna pay a running back sort of a thing? I think Breeze Hall and Achin getting done when they got done is more about the agents being able to say Breeze Hall is the fifth highest paid running back in football. Demonet Sheen is the third highest paid running back in football. Because once Gibbs and Bijon get done, you're you're not gonna be at that spot anymore. So it's less about, you know, we need to get at this number before Gibbs and Bijon signs. They'll pull up the number for A. J. A. N. They'll pull up the number for Breeze Hall and more just like where where the ranking is actually gonna be. I'll be interested to see what happens first, Gibbs or Bijon because I

Speaker 3: am too. Like, whoever's gonna be fighting for it.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Whoever goes second can argue that they should be above the other one. Right? If it's Jameer, all your per touch numbers are better. And if it's Bijon, it's okay, but I'm the actual bell cow here. Right? That that guy's been, you know, kind of second to to Dave Montgomery. He's split time. So both of them have very easy arguments to be paid over the other one. I don't I don't remember what the representatives are and if it's, like, the same agency or different agencies or what have you. But that that to me is interesting thing. Both of them are gonna clear Saquon. They're gonna be one and two by the time we snap a football in September.

Speaker 3: So sort of a game of chicken to see who gets done first for you you almost don't want to be done first if you're Jameer or Bijan.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think if you are Atlanta, you are in a place of, like, transition. You have a new president of football operations, and, you know, you don't have a quarterback. And you would kinda really like the PR bump of being like, we secured Robinson, highest paid running back in football. Like, we did it right now. He's a priority. He's our offensive centerpiece. If you're the lions, you need to get Jamir done so you can get reported done, so you can get Campbell done, so you can get right. There's there's gotta be a first domino here to kinda get to the rest of them. And so both have reasons to be a little urgent because they they kinda want to get that that news cycle in place or get that information in place so they can move on other players. You can argue the Falcons, right, with Drake London and and Kyle Pitts is on the franchise tag, also need some information about where they're at money wise. And so both teams have reasons to kinda get this horse on the tracks.

Speaker 3: You brought up Jack Campbell. We are expecting the extension for him. But before we get into that, like, he's a linebacker. And because he has been an all pro, his fifth year option was the franchise tag value for linebackers, which also ropes in pass rushers. Yep. So he's in there with, you know, the Will Anderson's, Miles Garrett's of the world. Is there is that ever gonna change? Is there any impetus on that to

Speaker 1: for the NFL to change that? Because it's ridiculous. So I texted somebody who works in contracts literally because of the Campbell thing. And I was like, hey. Like, are they ever gonna get to this? And they were like, they should it's a CBA thing. They should like, the the teams wanted to change, and the players wanted to change. Everybody just wants it to be accurate. He was like, the only people who don't want it to be accurate are the tight ends because the tight ends are trying to argue their slot receivers. Right? Like, the whole the Jimmy Graham argument back in the day, which didn't work. But still, like, you know, other than that, everyone wants to be accurate. The issue is that, like, this upcoming CBA with how things have devolved to the NFL PA, with the importance of the eighteenth game that the owners want so badly, with the questions of if the owners are gonna try to move off of the $50.50 revenue split with the, you know, international games. There's a lot of, like, you know, entrees on the table and, you know, fifth year option positional calculations is kind of, you know, the stuffing is the green bean casserole. We'd like it, but it's not necessarily, I think, the featured thing. So, hopefully, like, they just pick a day early, get that done, put it on a shelf, and then they handle the bigger stuff, and then and and it gets solved. So there's no reason it shouldn't. It it it just is now as we're thinking about Edge rusher differently and, like, we're naming positions differently, it should just get addressed. But as of right, it's it's it's until the CBA, which is a 2030 thing. So we got this for another couple years at least.

Speaker 3: Fun. Yeah. Since we only have to deal with this once in Detroit because Jack Campbell appears to be one of a kind. Alright. So you got Gibbs, Campbell, Laporta, Branch, all in need of extensions. If the Lions can't pay one of them, who would you not pay?

Speaker 1: It would probably be Laporta for me because of the positions and because of the injuries. Right? Where I think that both Branch and Laporta have missed time. And so those are the I think are the guys who get knocked below Campbell and Gibbs, which, like, firstly, how funny. Like, I'm sure every Lions fan listening to this knows that I was, like, not a fan of the draft in 2022, the week nobody was or '23, whenever it was. And we all, like, all of us, all draft guys said after they took Laporta and Brent, we're like, oh, okay. Like, now, like, you know, position wise all makes more sense. Well, low and behold, four or five years later, Brad Holmes is still kicking our tails because it's the linebacker and the running back who, like, for sure deserve the extensions and the tight end of the safety are a little bit trickier. But I do think that you are able to draft and develop middle round tight ends more successfully than you should expect at the safety position. So I think it's easier to backfill a portal without a, like, truly elite pick, number one. Then number two, I think that it's you don't wanna be in a position where you're paying both of your safeties top of the market money, and they obviously are already there with Kirby. Now Kirby had the knee injury, and that really complicates things. And so they might say to themselves that we don't know if Kirby is just, like, gonna be playing for us. And so we're we're gonna go and kind of prioritize the branch for that reason. But I just I simply lean the board because I think the position's a little bit easier to to backfill. And just, like, once a guy starts having back injuries in his early in his mid twenties, I just don't wanna be in a spot where I'm, like, investing in him super long term because that's like, anybody with back problems will tell you. Like, back problems don't go away. Right? So, oh oh, and now my back is fine. Like, it just does not happen. So to me, like, that's the spot you wanna get off of.

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's gonna be a tough decision. And, hopefully, they can pay them all, but then then you're looking at, like, going el cheapo on every other free agent that's that's out there. And that's

Speaker 1: And they already, like Brad's already, like, trying to run the quarterback two carousel and ride the edge two carousel to, like, be able to color in the margins. And as Lions fans have experienced, that can work until it doesn't. Right? And so it's just so hard to live on the margins at some of those positions. This is the problem with drafting developing as well as they did. It's why I always go back to Campbell very wisely saying to the team after the the niners game, listen. We might not be back here. Because, like, the team is just so measurably different in terms of how the accounting book works than than it worked there when they were on all those rookie contracts.

Speaker 3: They have not been back yet, and that's frustrating. But we are this this is an optimistic show. I and you know me well enough to know. I'm an optimist, so I'm not. I love the Blake Miller pick. You're we haven't really segued in the draft here, but we'll do that now. Your thoughts on Blake Miller and coming in and also moving to the left side, because that that's that's that's the offensive line for Detroit right now.

Speaker 1: So I was a big Monroe Frieling guy, and I love the idea of, like, Frieling at left, keep Pena at right. Like, that was that was I was when when they got to the board and Frieling was still there, I was like, dude, send it. And just have Pena and Frieling have just two, like, unbelievable movers who also weigh three hundred and thirty pounds. Like, let's just, like, have the best tackle do over the next decade. So Miller, I simply do not like as much as Frieling, and then you also have to kick Penney to the left. Now they've been talking about doing Penney to the left all off season, and he clearly has worked on it, and and they feel very internally confident about it. Obviously, from the outside looking in, I just remember the last time we played him at left tackle and how tough that was for him kind of as a rookie in making that switch. And so for, like, you know, for whatever process wise it was for them that they landed on Miller because of the experience, because on the the years that he started relative to Freeland, it was a very late kinda breakout this season. You they trust their process, and and he's gonna be their guy. Miller, I thought, is a very likable player. I don't Miller is not the sort of physical force that I typically associate with lines offensive linemen. Like, I think if you had a bone to pick with Miller, it's that he fights to a lot of neutrals. He's not necessarily, like, a, you know, uber tough guy, you know, dealing with power rushes. He certainly will, like, run through a play in the running game, but he's just not a guy who, like, breaks the sled the way that you know? Well, for certainly when they had, like, you know, Penne and and Rag now there, like, those are break the sled sort of a guys. And it's just kind of kind of how we've typify this Lions team under Dan Campbell. So he's a little bit more finesse than I expected for that, but that can be really good when you wanna live in more of a drop back world. And, obviously, the issue for them last season was a pass protection. And I think that Miller really like, that's where where his strength is right now. I can be an NFL right tackle on a third at six and kinda hold that edge down and be able to keep the quarterback alive. And so like the player, I will forever watch the career of Freeling in Carolina and wonder what would have been if you went to Detroit.

Speaker 3: You're not gonna be the only one. There were a lot of Lions fans that were convinced that they were gonna take if if it wasn't gonna be Caden Proctor, which I just didn't want at all.

Speaker 1: Talking with you in the pre draft process, I I I remember correctly, you said it's not Proctor. But you were like, it could be Freeling. It could be Miller. Like, you were you weren't like they had a had a strong lead in one direction or not.

Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah. But they they certainly liked Freeling, but the the I think the impetus was that Pena going to the left side be and and Miller being more ready to roll right now. This is a team that their Super Bowl window was open now. Yeah. And Freelee somebody

Speaker 1: could was, like, not good on, like, November 8. Right? Like, it was, like, very late breakout, and it happened for, like, five weeks. So I I when I first started watching Freelee in the process, I was like, what are we doing? And then I got to late game film, and I was like, holy smokes. Okay. So but I get them being like, alright. I will hit my wagon to a much more sure thing because, like, we cannot play the ball we played last year. We're just the amount of pressure they were dealing with with with a quarterback like Jared, who doesn't necessarily move super well, I I understand, you know, running to the sure thing.

Speaker 3: Yeah. You just your thoughts in general on where the Lions sit? Not not necessarily, like, in the NFC pantheon, but, like, can they is it realistic that that we can talk about the Lions going to Super Bowl this year or winning a division title, raising up from nine wins to back to 12 or 13?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Let me let me get, you know, one good preseason game watching this into your offensive line, and then I'll tell you. Right? Like, it just it's it's when when you have a quarterback like Jared, who just is a pocket passer, needs to operate from between the tackles, it's just so important to be good guard center guard. And, you know, know, I don't need to tell you and anybody listening, but, like But

Speaker 3: they were not last year. Yeah. They were

Speaker 1: terrible last year, and they have four new starters from the line two years ago. Right? And Penny is the only returning starter, and he's flipping sides. Like, this line Yeah. Could certainly be good, and they have invested such that they're hoping it is good. But it could also be quite bad. Right? Sometimes you, like, sign a Cade Mays, and he just is not good outside of Carolina. Remember, there's a guy at Panthers cut two years ago. Right? Like, we're we're not talking about they went and spent all the top five picks. They spend the money on Lindberbaum. No. They they're trying to do it in the margins because that's the stage of of team building they're at right now. So, you know, if you can get this line to be the fourteenth best line, then I can get there. Right? I think that Kelvin Shepherd has the opportunity to do a lot of really cool stuff with this defense. I think the defensive line is gonna be really, really good. I mean, like, they just they have now that Liam is back healthy, you have a second year of Tyreek Williams, you have Hutch coming back fully healthy. You're gonna have, the DJ one and into Derek Moore combination on the on the side. If you have better, like, availability there at edge two, I think there's, like, the run defense that they're gonna be able to get from that front four. And you can call it front six there with with Jack and with Derek Barnes. Like, the you know, they have the potential to be really dynamic there and then be very creative and coverage on the back end once the safeties come back healthy. So I'm still a believer in Kelvin Shepherd. I liked the Drew Petzinger higher. I know that when it happened, a lot of lions fans were like, what? Like, there's this bald man from Arizona. But I thought he was the guy who always made a lot of chicken salad, chicken, you know what, the the Arizona. He's got the Hank Frehley connection. They're gonna be a really good run-in the football. So there's there's I there's a lot that I trust here. But, I mean, the quickest way to lampoon a really good team in a really bad team is always offensive line play, and that right now is the big question with Detroit. So is it in the card Super Bowl? Absolutely. So it's, like, five and twelve. Right? I don't think that's gonna happen, but really, really, really wide range of outcomes right now for the Lions.

Speaker 3: So your biggest concern with the team off into your offensive line?

Speaker 1: Go out center guard. For sure. I liked the May signing. I thought they got them for good value. The center market was taken off like crazy, and they got a guy who can start for 10,000,000 or for less than 10,000,000 per year. I was a little bit lower on Ratlidge's rookie season than I think a lot of people were. I think he was the best of a bad bunch, but I wouldn't have called him, like, a needle moving player. And then I have liked what I have seen from Christian Mahogany. It's just the amount of the Christian Mahogany I've seen is concerning me. Right? You can't be screwed up. Yeah. Exactly. You gotta be able to get on the field there. And so with all three individual players, I can give you a case. Because, yeah, this will be good. But it's all three of them are question mark. All three of them are ranges. So you gotta hit, you know, the turn the the the river, the flap, the turn.

Speaker 3: You know?

Speaker 1: You gotta hit all three here, and that's the there's no sort of hand you wanna be playing. And so I I Dan Campbell has earned my faith. Brad Holmes have earned my faith. I trust that group, but there's a lot outside your control in the NFL. And that line right there speaks to it.

Speaker 3: Ben, I'm gonna get out of here on this last question. And it's come up in various media circles that if the Lions don't have a good year, if they missed the postseason again or, you know, wash out, do you think that there is any chance that Dan Campbell and or Brad Holmes are in trouble in Detroit?

Speaker 1: I would I mean, like, yes. And then I would take off and fly. Like, you know, I'm just absolutely not. Right? Like, in a completely fantastical world, I I can't get there. If you if you are managed to convince yourself that there is a better coach in the lead that you can absolutely hire than Dan Campbell, I think you've deluded yourself. And I think you you know, like, there's absolutely things Brad Holmes does every single draft where I'm like, you know, Bradley. I don't know if his full name was Bradley. Brad. Like, with the, you know, like, with the with Manu, with Baki. You gotta treat the third for this law. Like, okay. Hold down. Right? Like, he definitely is a you know, he he drives a little bit higher than the speed limit in the draft at times. He he's got a lot of confidence in his process. And at times, I think that he bristles at challenges to it, and he he defends it. He kinda makes points in it, and he invests in his guys, and that can be the detriment of the team. But that's every gym in the league. Right? Like, Howie Rosen is too committed to his process. Howie does stuff all the time where I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, like, the, you know, the

Speaker 3: And and you are you are an Eagles guy by by birth. So Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so, like, it's just the case that, like, John Schneider had, like, a terrible GM reputation this time last year. And then, like, every single move he made him, the Seahawks won the Super Bowl. Like, the what I would say is the the margin between good jamming and bad jamming is razor thin. And so if you wanna convince yourself that you can go hire somebody better than Brad Holmes, go for it. I'm pretty confident Brad Holmes is one of the 32 best GMs in the league. And he clearly gets what Dan likes, and they they they they operate in good lockstep with each other. Maybe at the end of the season, we'll discover, oh, no. They wanted to do it this way and actually this and whatever. But for right now, it seems like they're in really good jive with one another. So to me like that, I expect that unit to stay. If you made me rank GM head coaching units in the league, they'd probably be in my top eight. So it's just, like, it's very hard for me to see them getting fired.

Speaker 3: I love it. Alright. I lied. One last question. Can the Lions win a Super Bowl with Jared Goff? Because that's come up in our Patreon Slack a lot. And people arguing and people sending me messages that Jared Goff's awful and the Lions need to look for his replacement. Where are you at? Can Jared Goff get the Lions over the top?

Speaker 1: As somebody who who has been, like, a very fur fervent golf detractor, I got a lot of trouble with Lions fans last year because I was bringing up the stats thrown outside in the cold weather.

Speaker 3: They do.

Speaker 1: They they play the Eagles. Yeah. Yeah. They absolutely can. I just watched the Seahawks swim with Sam Darnold. I watched Eagles swim with Jalen Hertz. Golf is emphatically at least that level of quarterback, if not a quarterback above. Now the year they had the first overall seed in the NFC and they're facing a rookie quarterback named Jaden Daniels in the in the divisional round, and they had Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn in the building, that was a really good year to do it. The year beforehand, when they had a 17 lead on the niners at halftime, that was a really good year to do it. Alright? I've told I think I've told you this before, but I live here at Michigan. Yeah. I was not working that that that Sunday. I didn't have to travel. And so I had all my buddies over, all lions fans in my house. Right? And and this this is, like, you know, lions had just gotten good. And so they didn't believe anything. They were like, we're about to get killed by the niners. Right? Like, every single game, they were like, there's no chance this will continue. And I was like, hell. I was like, you're gonna you're gonna win this game. Like, pregame, I was like, you got you guys are better than the niners. You guys have got it. You guys go to the Super Bowl. I was hyping them up. I, you know, I was grilling. Like, I very rarely get to have people over for a game because of the job. And so I was having a great time hosting my friends, and Atlanta winning. At 70 half of them, I was talking cash money, Jeff. I was like, fellas, I told you. Buy your tickets. I'm going to Super Bowl this year. You know, tell me who to talk to. Who do you want quotes from? Like, you guys are doing I'm so happy for you. I'd written a piece. I talked to Lomas Brown about, like, thirty years since the home game. And then freaking the ball bounced off kid of the owner's helmet and went to Brandon Ayuk. And so it's just absolutely, they can win a Super Bowl with Jared Goff. Those seasons and how close they got are kind of proof that they can get there, but those are the best windows. This is measurably a a second best window, worst window, and it means it's gonna be a lot harder to get that job done.

Speaker 3: Oh, Ben. My fellow West Michigander, we gotta we gotta bond together over that.

Speaker 1: How are you enjoying these 80 degrees weather? It's awful today. It's sweaty and humid. I hate it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So we're recording this on Sunday. And on Thursday, it will be 55

Speaker 1: for a high. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. But right now, man, it is blisteringly, unpleasantly hot. Get me back to winter, man. Uh-huh.

Speaker 3: I'm gonna fight with fight you with them. Then I like it hot. Yeah. That's that's where we are. Ben, thank you so much for joining me. Tell people where they can find your work, what you got coming down the pipe.

Speaker 1: Yep. At benjamin solak is the spot on the Twitter, on the Instagram, on TikTok. Come hang out. I had my big eight questions about sophomore players that just came out at espn.com. You can catch all my written work there, all my podcast work on the Mina Kimes Show featuring Lenny quarterback draft this week. I don't know where Jared Goff will go. Probably later than the Lions fans would hope.

Speaker 3: That's the way it is. Ben, so thanks so much for joining me, man. I really appreciate it. I will catch you in the DMs.

Speaker 1: See you. Bye bye.

Speaker 3: Alright. Ben Solak, ladies and gentlemen. Love that guy. We're gonna call that a show? That was a lot of information, man. Ben just he just goes. He wind him up. He fires out the information. Hope you all enjoyed that. This is Jeff Riston signing out. Be good to one another, everybody.