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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. Jeff Rosen here with your daily DLP. We've been going heavy on a lot of stuff that frankly, we didn't really wanna talk about over the last few days, and we're gonna do a little bit of a change up here. I have a guest today who has written a book that y'all will wanna read, and I will bring him up now. It's Joel Wachowski. Joel, I will bring you in. Welcome to the daily DLP. Hey.

Speaker 3: What's up, Jeff? So good to be on the daily DLP. And, like, I don't know. I'm like a lot of the fan base. I've I know so much about streams and crimes right now. Let's take a break.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly. And and I think this is a welcome respite. So you have written a book. And as I told you before, we would there it is. Honolulu Blues. It's beautiful. I love it. As I told you before, I've just been like, I've skimmed over it. I've read, like, bits and pieces, chapters, headings here and there, but I haven't read the whole thing. I do appreciate you sending me the best copy, by the way. It will be, poolside reading, hopefully, sometime this weekend.

Speaker 3: Yeah. No. It it's coming out July 14, and we're people are really starting to grab on to this thing. Got my first good review this morning, but, like, okay. It's a Lions history book, but it's also kinda like, I don't know if you feel this way covering the team, but as a Lions fan, I feel like the constant disappointment since, like, 1990 in my case. Like, it shaped me in some way, and I kinda argue that it improved me. Like, watching the Lions, yeah, I didn't get the Super Bowl ring. I'll still remember, like, muffed extra points that would've, like, sent us to overtime against Minnesota. The NFC championship will stay with me forever, but I think I turned out better than if I were a Packer or Patriots fan. Like, I've got a resilience that kinda carried me through life.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And and so when you approached me about this, like, that that was that was your pitch. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. I I get that. I totally I'm I'm with you on that. I do think that to a large extent, what we collectively have suffered through as Lions fans does make us different than other fan bases. And I say that as somebody who you know, I've I've been I grew up in the Browns fan base, which is sort of parallel, but also different. But but, like, watching the Steelers when I was a kid, watching the Cowboys be obnoxious forever, watching the Packers win titles. And we have really good teams that are going against them, and it didn't materialize. And I do think that that changes us in a way for the better.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I mean, coming close, getting to grips with disappointment, like, that's something that happens repeatedly in life. And, you know, it was the Patricia era. Things were the darkest they've ever been. Like, you knew the loss was coming every Sunday, not even just that Sunday, but in the fourth quarter. And I think, like, realizing, oh, this is the best part of my week. Like, that's a profound realization. Like Yeah. Yeah. And, like, the lions, they're Greek mythology. Mythology. You can learn so much about the world and, in my case, myself from rooting on this team.

Speaker 2: So one of the things that you mentioned in the book is you talked about how it made you different with your father. It changed your relationship with him. You wanna talk a little bit about that because I don't have that. My dad was a Browns fan, so he doesn't really, like I mean, he gets a different sort of disappointment, but he doesn't get what it's like to be a Lions fan. And Yeah.

Speaker 3: Put that upon me. No. And I I think, like, specifically, my father was special needs. He was on the autism spectrum and had a lot of really hard things in his early childhood that, you know, he never really moved fast. And he has these special interests, and, like, the other interests were, like, banjos and leather making. That's gonna not appeal to me as a kid, but he also had the lions. So the lions, you know, they kinda were a stand in for paternal guidance where, like, yeah. I'm not gonna give childhood lessons, but you can learn something from how Barry Sanders conducts himself. If you see Stafford pull himself off the mat and, like, it kinda is, like, rooting on a losing team is a lot like having a special needs parent. Like, you have these expectations. You learn you're not maybe gonna fulfill them. So you learn to just, like, build a different type of relationship with them.

Speaker 2: Wow. The different sort of, like, reality, than a lot than a lot of people get. That's that that's that's fascinating, honestly. That's Let I can see why you would be drawn into being a Lions fan that way. You know?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, childhood, like, bedtime stories were, like, old media guides. We're, like, just going through these were the assistant coaching. Like, you see behind me, that's a ball that he got me that was given to defensive coordinator Mel Phillips in 1981. So, like, the team was just always built up to be, like, this is the structure of our life. We're built around this team, and, like, season tickets had been in our family since '34. Like, I don't think they were football fans. It was described to me as, you know, go watching lions was a great place to drink beer and get in a fight. And, you know, maybe the Ford will have his first change a bit since then, but, like, you know, this is where community lives.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's and and one of the so one of the early chapters you talk about, the the era of winning and how, like, we were the sent the the lions were the center of the winning universe in in the NFL. And, that that was before I was born, before my dad was born, unfortunately. Like, it's it's so long ago.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's it's kind of lost to history, but the model of being a modern football fan was kinda shaped in nineteen fifties Detroit. Like, games were moved to optimize the viewing audience. There were blackout rules for the first time. And even on the football front, like, those teams ran the first two minute drill. They played under the lights and, like, there was just a relationship between the city and the team. And, like, a lot of that was the ownership structure that kinda is, like, reminiscent of, like, modern SEC football where just, like, everything supported the lions. And they they they did great.

Speaker 2: Well, I ask you, you you you appear to be about the same age as my maybe maybe a little bit younger. But what what where was your entry point into the Lions, and, like, what, what players do you remember liking early on that they kept you with the lions even when they weren't necessarily winning?

Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I'm about to turn 40.

Speaker 2: And You're much younger than me.

Speaker 3: I came of age like, you first make those memories in 1989. Barry Sanders' first game happens to be my first birthday. I remember I don't remember, like, sitting down in a place, but I remember, like, everyone was excited to see this guy. And, like, you know, we weren't a religious household, but I grew up in Dearborn, which is, like, two faiths. It's a it's a lot of big Islamic population, a little Catholic population. And, like, this guy is on McDonald's cups. This guy is on billboards. And, like, he was bigger than anything. And, like, so he, like and, also, I'm sober.

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Speaker 3: Sam's Club. So, like, I kinda use, like, Barry as the stand in for a higher power in the book. I make that argument. And, like, there was a study that, like, kids, if they're not raised religious, they will find anything as a higher power. And I think that's what I did with Barry.

Speaker 2: That's that's fascinating. And he he didn't let you down. That's good.

Speaker 3: No. And, like, if you look at it, like, oh, he came through some big spots. Like, the Lions, like, of his early, like, tenure, like, I remember watching the Utley game. I remember Reggie Brown. And, like, it's not just that the team lost. The team experienced trauma of, like, a real human level. And if you look at Barry's career, he had a lot of great games. He had a big moments when, like, this to even to, like, stay watching the team, something positive needed to happen. And he was the only one who was able to make the game fun again.

Speaker 2: You know? And even in the losing, he made one of one of the axioms that comes down that that we deal with in sports media a lot is, if you're gonna be bad, at least be fun, be interesting. And those teams were definitely fun and interesting.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And they were fun and interesting, but there was also, like, terrible luck where, like, Barry had a great o line, but then the Utley tragedy happened. Eric Ann Dolcek, like, what happened to him should be one of the, like, great tragic stories in American sports and as it's brushed under the rug. Like, I don't know if the if the listeners know. Erika Ndolcek was a Pro Bowl guard. Yes. In the off season, after the Utley injury, he was doing yard work and a truck skipped the curb, hit him, ended his life, and, like, this is the these are the this is the deck that Barry was dealt, and he came through.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That it it's crazy to me, first off, that that that happened. My understanding was that he was weed whacking around his his mailbox and got hit or something like that. But, like, again, just, like, how does that happen? And how like, it did it's you know, you got the oddly thing post is right there. You know, it's fresh. Just so much my god. Like, we've dealt with a lot, my friend.

Speaker 3: Yo. And, like, I feel like it's almost cosmic. Like, when I say it's, like, Greek mythology, I don't mean it lightly. Like, Barry had every bad condition you could have for a playing career, and he transcended that. Like, I like it when the team like they were very excited after his rookie year. They drafted Andre Ware. And then very quietly after that happened, the director of college scouting resigned in protest. Immediately after that, they traded for Pat Swilling. They signed him in free agency. New Orleans match the contract. What do you do? You trade a first and a fourth for him. What did Barry need? Blockers. Who did those picks become? Willie Rolfe and Lorenzo Neal. So Yeah. It was as bad as it could have been, and he goes down as, like, the most celebrated football player. Like, people on the street, like, they don't talk to me about the Lions. They wax poetic about Barry Sanders.

Speaker 2: You know, Barry still has that, like, charismatic, like, draw to him. You see him when he shows up at training camp, and people just drawn to him. And he like, he's not an outwardly, like, projective guy. Like, he's sort of quiet, kinda, you know, mild mannered, but he he's he's great with the fans still to this day. And people like you, people like me, like, I'll admit the first time I I met him and shook his hand. I was like, that's very freaking serious right there. Like, like, am I am I here? You know?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And above all else, like, maybe watching all these games, we can learn of some traits, but, like, Barry, like, also was an exercise in humility. Like, he's transcending the human form like Fred Astaire. Meanwhile, like, when we in the scouting report that, like, made Wayne Fonts draft Barry and announce he was drafting Barry, like, it wasn't about his ability. It was about how nice he was to the secretaries in the team office. And, like, when he clashed with Wayne Fonts, it was, hey. How come the Bible in your office never seems to move? So and then, of course, there's, like, the avoiding all the records. But, like, it is just an exercise in, like, community and humility, and, like, he's a value driven superstar. What else can you hope for?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Wanna get into the process of writing this book because it it's clearly an undertaking. How long did it take you to do it? What did and and as a writer, I'm gonna ask you this because I I have written stuff on my own long form edit. I tend to be terribly chaotic until I outline everything, but then I skew from the outline. Is that sort of your process? Or or walk me through how you get it done.

Speaker 3: The process was chaotic. And, you know, I decided this book was my goal. And I made it my number one thing. Like, I had a good career, have a good relate like, what what could really fulfill me? I was like, no. It's this book and this story. And I was like, I put everything to write this book about the lions and my dad and, like, kinda male emotions. And as I did it, my dad was outwardly dying. I had to stop everything, be his caretaker. So I wrote everything by hand in his, like, little hoarder shack in Bloomington, Indiana. And he passed. I did another draft, and then I paused. I wrote the proposal. I sold it to Ben Bella, Matt Holt, Simon Schuster, whatever. But then that informed me was like, oh, it's Lyons history, but the Lyons are the lens that I see the world. Like, it's not

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: That, like, oh, x and y happened. It's this this happening aligns with this thing in my life, and you go from there. It took six drafts in total, three years, no days off. And I would just as, like, I I was kinda lucky where, like, I was really working recovery hard, and I started working recovery hard in September 2021. If there was ever a time to learn from that team that things are gonna be done a little differently, this is the way.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So let let's talk about that. Your thoughts on the transition from the Quintricia era to what we have now. Because, like, there's been a whole lot of negativity in the last couple of weeks about everything. It's tough to recall, like, how bad it was not that long ago.

Speaker 3: It wasn't it was and, like, it's impossible to have an argue have an argument about, like, oh, here's my flawed dynamic against the Lions without looking at the ownership of the team. It went from a conglomerate based organization, William Clay Ford. You know, he loved the lions, but it's kinda like Lenny and Of Mice and Men, like, squeezed them so hard. All the life came out of them. And, like Yes. Just bad GMs were in place for twenty years at a time. And The

Speaker 2: the the the the book to not to be a pun there, but the book on him is that he he clung to bad people way too long.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And, like, Russ Thomas was so bad that

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Speaker 3: A rumor is like, oh, he saved him from drowning. He's his AA sponsor. And, like, that's not the right thing for a GM, but it took Sheila coming aboard and, like, saying, oh, I need to change. And what is recovery except looking in the mirror saying I need to change in building infrastructure? Like, I talk about Brad and Dan and Jared in the context of going to my first meeting. And that's so scary, but, you know, expectations were low with these new guys. Things were gonna be different. And it took that humility to go, oh, the thing the way we've been doing things is plainly wrong, and we need to change.

Speaker 2: It's hard to do revolutionary change overnight. And, I think I I'm I'm a big Sheila fan. I think she's done a fantastic job of coming in. And, like like, I liked Martha. I appreciate it, Martha. I I I love still seeing her on her golf cart, you know, run, You know? But

Speaker 3: It's a nice figure and, like, great sunglasses on her. Right? Like, she's very chic.

Speaker 2: She rocked the cotillion set back in the

Speaker 3: day. Yeah. But it's also these are some of the most competitive industries in the world. Like, the lions are a billion dollar plus enterprise. They need to be managed like one. They're like a fortune 500 company, and the level of buy in and corporate infrastructure was just lagging behind other teams. Like, I think we were the last team in the NFL to get a masseuse, the last team to get a chef for the players where we were just our processes were so far behind all other franchises that we needed to overcome it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I can tell you, like, just from from when I I first started I I was I started getting credentialed for the team in 2015, and I can tell you back then, I had been credentialed with other teams, and I'm like, the Lions don't have x, y, z. Like, what and it it had and the thing was, it had never occurred to them that they needed it. It's like they didn't have that outward focus at all, and that's that that was that was very frustrating.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, William Clay Ford, like, he could've there was no salary cap. He was one of the richest men in the world, and, like, we lost out on, like, guys like Fred Biletnikoff because, oh, I wanna win spending the same amount of money as other people. No. Come on, WCF. Spend the money. And I do I do have the joke in the book that the WCF uniform patch stand for stands for we certainly failed.

Speaker 2: I can't argue with that at all. I do remember when they were talking about the new uniforms. Like, people got into fights over, like, what they want, like, color schemes and fonts and all that. But the one thing that everyone was like, get rid of the freaking WCF patch.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And, like, George Halas has it, but George Halas, like, invented the NFL. Like, it's a different thing than, yeah, I own the team for thirty five years, and we how about that 91 playoff win? Remember when we beat the Cowboys? Put the patch on.

Speaker 2: Sadly, I I did not see that game I was working, unfortunately. I did see the Packers lost, though. That yeah. Oh, god. I'm I'm thinking back now to to the those early nineties teams because I was in college then. I didn't get to see every week the games every week, so I missed Herman Moore in his prime. I missed a lot of Barry in his prime, and I'm frustrated by that. And I'm

Speaker 3: Yeah. And, like, but it's still everything that could go wrong went wrong. Like, yeah. The worst loss of my childhood was it had to be that Eagles wild card game where we were

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3: We were the we were the best team in the NFL at that point in time. But then Yancey Thigpen drops a pass in Green Bay. We gotta go on the road to Philadelphia. What happens at the beginning of that game? Brett Pereman suffers a serious injury, and the best offense in the league, they're together for a drive and a half of the postseason. And, of course, Mitchell threw a pick six. Philly got a hail Mary to end the half, and it was truly the worst game you could ever have started by that pyramid injury. Like, they spiraled out because of that.

Speaker 2: Oh, Julia dredging up bad memories, man. Yeah. That's sort of what your book is about. It's like going through all this and how it makes us different people

Speaker 3: as Absolutely. And, you know, so my father was dying during the 2024 during the postseason run. And he said, I want you to go to the NFC championship game. I was I was by his side for, like, a year straight, and I only left him to go to this game. And, oh, you were there. I was there. He wanted a firsthand recollection. And the thing that and like I get back to my dad, I'm devastated. And he this guy's not gonna see a Super Bowl in his lifetime. And he's like, dang, this team was pretty good this year, weren't they? They gave us so many memories, and it's like, oh, do I use this team? Do I need this payoff? Or is it the conversations I'm having with my dad right now? Is that why I love this team? And I think that's why I love this team. It's like my whole community, my greatest relationships, the Lions gave me those. What's another couple Sundays in February?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd love love that perspective. And I do think that, you know, especially those of us in the in the the DLP Slack, like, that that's that's our community. Like, we we look out for one another and and support one another, and we disagree and we fight sometimes, but it's like we all have that common bond that we've all gone through. And if you haven't gone through that, you you you don't get it. You don't get it, Joel.

Speaker 3: No. And, like, life hits hard, and it's filled with disappointment. Like, I've had a lot of death and loss in the past five years. And if there's one thing that can prepare me for taking a loss, it's historically speaking, because we're going 13 to four this year, Lions football.

Speaker 2: 13 to four, I'm I'm I'm down with that. So let me ask you about the current team. Clearly, you're you're you're you're you're liking what you see if you're predicting them to be thirteen and four. I have them at twelve and five, so we're of like mind there. What gives you so much optimism about the twenty twenty six lions? I mean, apart from the schedule, there's a ton of

Speaker 3: talent on this team. Like and I I think, like, the goal shouldn't be to win the Super Bowl. The goal is to be a good football team. There's generally about seven or eight teams that can win it all, and then you need health and luck. And you look at this offense. We have maybe the best offensive lineman in the game. That's huge. We've got and then we have the perfect receiving pair pairing. We've got Amun Ra as the possession receiver, Jameson as maybe the greatest home run hitter in the sport, and then we have Barry Sanders essentially in the back field. Like, this team can beat any other team on any given Sunday, and that's been the case for, like, what, three of my forty years on Earth? Like, this is awesome.

Speaker 2: It's been the case for about three of my fifty four, so I'm beyond that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, one of these years, the Packers are gonna go four and thirteen. Like, I do fear Minnesota, like Kyler with KOC is, you know.

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Speaker 3: That's scary to me. No one will hire Brian Flores as our head coach because he said Tula was bad. Brian Flores was right and people still stay away from him, but, like, I think we have better stability than other teams in our division, which is a rare thing. And, like, Chicago, they had a great year, but as we can attest, we know how hard it is to replace a Pro Bowl center. Probably the hardest position to replace.

Speaker 2: Certainly. And and they are now dealing with so one of my theories, and I'm sure you know this, is that, the lions didn't handle going from being the hunter to the hunted very well. And I don't know if the bears are gonna be able to handle that either.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And but that's about the line, but we also had, like, pretty rare injury luck. And even last year in when everything went wrong, we went nine and eight. Like, one thing goes the other way against Kansas City or Philly. You know, we're a playoff team. I mean, the Christmas Day game, like, you know, that one I won't touch. But even if, if the game is called correctly against Pittsburgh, you know, we're a playoff team. Pittsburgh was terrible because I took my mom and my aunt to the game who liked the team, but they don't really understand it. So I walked out with them and they're like, yeah, we won.

Speaker 2: Oh, no. I was

Speaker 3: like, No, no, no, no. We did that win. Like, I have to explain why. And of course, the book opens. I become God. My, like, my uncle dies. I become godfather to his to his son, his his grandson. Now he just doesn't have a man in his life. And I'm like, let's go to a lion's game. It's the golden take game where, like, the city explodes in joy

Speaker 2: and and there's a league overturns it. I I can read that part.

Speaker 3: Yeah. What happened? Exactly what it should. You will lose, you will enjoy it, and you will end be strong enough to face the next loss with enthusiasm.

Speaker 2: We face a lot of challenges as Lions fans, and it does prepare us for whatever whatever the universe throws at us. Thank god for that.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. Even even o and 16. So I was bad alcoc. I drank myself to death. I couldn't get sober. And I'm I'm like basically homeless. And then, like, Stafford comes in playing the Browns. I'm, like, watching in a little RV with no electricity, no food. I'm stealing from the grocery stores. And I see this guy just kind of carry us. And I'm like, oh, it's possible. You can do this.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, congratulations on your sobriety, by the way. That's that that's not an easy challenge. So Yeah. Proud of

Speaker 3: you for that. It's not a linear journey, but we're at eleven years. So it was maybe some stop and start there. And, like, I'm also, like, I'm a facilitator in, like, the smart recovery program. Like, I work with other addicts, and, like, I kinda use the lions in that work stream where it's just like, hey. Find whatever it is that perks up your antenna and see what else you can get out of it.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. You've got you've you've gotta have those escapes in life, whether it's music, the lions, whatever, gardening, anything. Find find something that gives you inner peace. That's Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm happy that you seem to have found that, Joel.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And, like, we do an exercise where you're supposed to rank the things you care about, and, like, it came to me. It's like, what's what do you care about most? It's like, Sundays. Like, okay. Why? It's like, I'm gonna see everyone I'm close with. I'm gonna watch the lions and sing my sing our stupid little song after every touchdown. And then down the field. And then because I to not drink, I started organizing a basketball game at 5PM on Sunday. So if I drank, I wouldn't be able to play. So then I go play ball with all my bros. Like, it's honestly the best day I could have, and, like, Monday through Saturday can suck. The Lions can lose. But I know, like, if I were to look at my life from a 10,000 foot view, I'm living pretty well if that's the highlight of my week.

Speaker 2: Love it, man. Joel, I can't thank you enough for coming on. Tell people where and when they can get the book when it comes out, the Honolulu Blues.

Speaker 3: Honolulu Blues, I'll hold it up. It comes out July 14 from Simon and Schuster, Ben Bella, Matt Holt. It is available everywhere. Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble. And if you're in the Detroit area, I'm at the Detroit Book Fest. I'm doing readings and talks about Lyons history throughout the state. I'm at Booksui on the twenty fourth. I'm at Barnes and Noble Troy on the twenty fifth. I'm at Schuler's on the twenty ninth. And then I actually partnered with the Michigan library system. Come September, I am doing a different library across Michigan every day from the seventeenth to October 4, and people it's we're we're gonna talk addiction. We're gonna talk lions. We're gonna do comedy, and all this builds. I don't know if you know this, Jeff. I'm kinda funny. I I was I was a stand up for twelve years. So at the independent in Hamtramck, October 4, I'm running the roast of Detroit sports. So Oh. Oh. That could be a lot of fun. Because before this, my biggest writing, I wrote for the Comedy Central roast. I got jokes on a Tom Brady roast. So, you know Wow. Even as we're having this serious, like, conversation, this this book is a comedy. And I think you look at my blurbs, they're from, like, Sam Murrell, Joe Perra. Like, different comics are like, this book is so funny. So I think people enjoy it.

Speaker 2: I love it. I am very much looking forward to reading it. I actually just finished the last book I was reading. I am on to you now, and I will be reading Honolulu Blues. And, I encourage everyone else to do it because, like, Joel, this was this was fantastic. I thank thank you so much for coming on to the the daily DLP and talking about it. No.

Speaker 3: I'd I've I told you off air. This is like meeting Tom Cruise. I'm such a diehard. It's like, oh

Speaker 2: God.

Speaker 3: I get to talk to Jeff Riston? That's amazing. And I did. This was the best half hour of my week. Move over Sundays. It's Taco with Jeff. That's my number one. Well, hey.

Speaker 2: We all needed some catharsis and uplifting this weekend, and I hope we provided that for y'all, the the the loyal DLP listeners.

Speaker 3: Alright. Thanks, guys. Go out and get it. Thanks, Joel.

Speaker 2: That was Joel Wachowski. That was a lot of fun. I very strongly encourage you all to go get his book, Honolulu Blues. You can order it from Amazon. Remember, if you go to the DLP Detroit Lions podcast and click on the the Amazon link, we actually get a little kickback from that side. Won't lie that. That would be cool. But, definitely check it out. There's a lot of fun stuff in it. Look. I've I've read through the chapter list. I've read the first couple, like, it it's fun. I I think you got a good picture of it. Anyhow, we needed that collectively as Lions fans. I'm happy now. Jeffresson signing out. Be good to one another, everybody.